I just thought that I would post up a brief back and forth that I took part in on a blogsite called Two Rivers, the particular discussion being in relation to homosexuality. The link to the post concerned I will place at the bottom of the page so you can take a look at the post aswell as the other comments for yourselves.
I am posting these comments in order to illustrate the continued failure of Christians and modern day Christianity. When commenting I had to as per usual go in on the institutional church beast because it is this same organisation that has allowed homosexuals to now believe that they can follow after Christ without a change in their lifestyles and themselves. I also talked about other biblical books and how they have been suppressed and demonised for no good cause. My writings will be in bold and the responses in italics. Please take a look at the exchange and tell me what you think:
You can actually read in more depth with regards to some of the other nasty, decadent deeds the folks of Sodom and Gomorrah got up in the book of Jasher, a book that the institutional church beast attempts to state “is not part of cannon”. This is a straight lie, church beast clergy simply want to control their flocks, they do not want their congregations thinking and reasoning for themselves as this could result in church leadership being rendered vestigial.
Homosexuality is a dysfunctional, decadent, reprobate, piece of trash lifestyle of no profit. Clergy have begun to preach a wishy washy doctrine in relation to homosexuality, most so called “christians” of this modern day refuse to stand strong on this topic either.
Back in the day homosexuals at least knew that their lifestyle was not acceptable in the eyes of the Most High, however with the questionable church leadership of 2015, the homosexual has now been lead to believe that he/she does not have to change. Err, new flash, since the scriptures state that believers are to be conformed to the image of Christ then it stands to reason that homosexuality would have to be purged out of one’s life.
By the way, I am still waiting for homosexuals and their advocates to list one benefit that homosexuality as a lifestyle brings to a community or a society, I’ll wait.
Thank you for your insights.
I’m curious, which “book of Jasher” are you referring to. There’s the forgery created in the mid eighteenth century, then there’s the Sephir haYashar which was first printed in Naples in the mid sixteenth century and which even Hebrew scholars do not accept as part of their cannon. There’s also a dozen rabbinical commentaries that go by that name but none date back much more than a thousand years. Considering that “The Book of Jasher” is more properly translated as “The Book of the Upright”, it is no surprise that there are many religious texts with the name. But which one do you believe the “evil church” has stamped out to keep its flocks under control?
I will agree that the act of homosexuality is a sin. As is lying, stealing, lust, and hatred. No one who willfully continues to live in a lifestyle of sin, any sin, will get to heaven. To call any sin good makes it all that much harder to break free from it. We are to be conformed to the image of Christ and, forgive the cliche’, but that image is clearly shown as loving the sinner while hating the sin. Is this not what Jesus did? Was he not a friend of sinners? I am grateful He was, and I want to be just like Him.
This is an excellent response. It is refreshing to find someone else saying what we as Catholics have been saying repeatedly.
As regards the Book of Yasher, are you also referring to the long-lost document mentioned in Joshua and II Samuel? That text has never been found.
The book of Jasher that I am referring contains 91 chapters. If this is the version that you are designating as a “forgery”, then I would at least hope you have drawn this conclusion from actually reading the material yourself. If not then you are behaving in exactly the manner that I mentioned before, where most modern day believers has lost the ability to think and to reason for themselves and instead expect their pastors, theologians, biblical historians, reverends, evangelists, bishops etc to carry out their thinking and reasoning processes for them.
Having personally read all 91 chapters myself, I do not see a problem with the book at all, I have also determined the same conclusions when it comes down to the Apocrypha, The Book Of Enoch and The Book of Jubilees, yet again from personal reading. Are you aware that many of these so called “scholars and experts” throughout time have drawn their conclusions solely based upon their own personal preferences and not upon any problematic and contradictory texts?
Now, you complained in your post about church leadership deflecting whenever the subject of homosexuality is raised, and rightly so. Yet here you are committing the very same transgression that you cascaded them for. No, this particular post is not in relation to lying, stealing, lust, hatred or any other sins, this post is expressly dealing with the sin of homosexuality and this is exactly what I commented on. You must be consistent in your approach sir, a wavering, wishy washy standing is not acceptable to Christ or the Most High.
As I stated before, those “friends” who interacted with Christ when he was on earth still knew that they would have to change and remove dysfunction from their lives in order to be accepted by him and thus enter into the kingdom of the Most High, in like manner when those involved in sin interact with believers, they ought to feel the same way. The problem is today this is not the case, the institutional church beast has carefully crafted things to go in this direction and this is precisely why the Most High is pulling down these churches and raising up the individual, the person seen as a “nobody” in its stead.
The churches of today are simply well kept monuments of failure, reprobation and decadence, they serve no real purpose other than to bottleneck believers into positions to where they can be controlled and manipulated. In turn many believers plough huge amounts of cash into the pockets of clergy leadership believing that they are “men and women of God” who have their best interests at heart, nothing could be further from the truth.
By the way, I am still looking for the schematics and the blueprints within the scriptures on how these churches operate, I cannot seem to find them.
Hello my friend. You say you are looking for a “blueprint” within the Scriptures on how these churches operate. Let me help: It is clear that Jesus intended to create a church. Read Matthew 16:18: …and upon this rock I will build my church.” Later in Matthew 18:15-20, Jesus states:”if [your brother who sins] refuses to listen to [witnesses], tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” Finally the entire Acts of the Apostles spells out how the Church developed under the authority of the apostles. Pay special attention to Acts 15, the whole question about whether or not Gentile converts needed to become Jewish in order to follow Christ. There was a difference of opinion among the members, and they gathered in Jerusalem to discuss the matter. When they reached their conclusion, the apostles sent out a strong, authoritative statement to the church as to what they were commanded to believe and do. This clearly shows order and a plan of structure by the apostles, who were the ones given the authority by Jesus to make such decisions and bring His message of salvation to the ends of the earth. This is the way the Church has worked since then. God bless you, my friend.
Appreciated for the response. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough, what I was stating was the fact that how these modern day churches operate from day to day regardless of the denomination is nothing in comparison to how the early church was functioning in the book of Acts.
The church that operated in the book of Acts did not involve the bread and circus, tom foolery, minstrel show, greedy man theatrics that we see commonly taking place within these modern day constructions of decadence.
In the book of Acts, the people came together to discuss various issues, they met the needs of the poor and they discussed with each other how the Most High was moving in their lives. There was no singing, no dancing about, there was no collection of money, the gathering was not the main focus, nor were the leaders, everybody worked and lead their own lives.
Fast forward to today and these modern churches have simply turned into entertainment centers and so called “church leadership” have rendered themselves to be physicians of no value.
All across the denominational board practically none of these churches dig deep into their pockets to genuinely help the poor. A homeless person for example will be turned away from the church building and told to go elsewhere before they will be offered any help.
Obviously this does not apply to every church, however it is the overwhelming majority who operate under this stingy and selfish fashion. One thing that is important to remember is that the church is the people, it is not the church building, it is not church leadership, it is not the singing, it is not the rituals etc.
As far as it still stands the schedulised, regimented, configured ways in which these churches operate today is nowhere to be found within the scriptures, I have posed this problem to many other folks and they have yet to demonstrate otherwise.
Again, this is exactly why the Most High is going to pull down all of these modern day churches and reduce them to piles of ashes and rubble, they have deviated from the original path, they are now operating under their own agendas and are feeding the flocks with disinformation and lies in order to keep their flocks centralised and thus under their control. The acceptance of homosexuality is just one of many examples of the incredible derailment that the institutional church has suffered.
“In the book of Acts, the people came together to discuss various issues, they met the needs of the poor and they discussed with each other how the Most High was moving in their lives.”
In the book of Acts the church devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals and to prayer. All the believers met together in one place and shared everything they had. They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. Each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.
“There was no singing,”
Hogwash. There was singing in the Old Testament. Singing in Revelation. And singing at all points between. Paul commands the churches to sing in Ephesians and Colossians. He did so Himself in jail with Silas. The kenosis in Philippians 2 is believed to be an early church hymn. The books of Romans, Hebrews, James, and 1 Corinthians all mention singing. But most importantly of all, Jesus sang a hymn with his disciples before ascending to the Mount of Olives.
“There was no singing, no dancing about,”
Granted, dancing is only mentioned twice in the New Testament, but the second of those is at the rejoicing of return of the Prodigal Son. Considering this, and that dancing was a common part of Jewish culture, and that the first Church hymnbook would have been the Psalms with their many injunctions toward dancing, I would say the weight of evidence is in the favor of dancing in the early church.
“There was no singing, no dancing about, there was no collection of money,”
Hogwash. Not only is it interspersed throughout the early church, Paul devoted an entire chapter to it in his second book to Corinth.
“the gathering was not the main focus,”
Again, the early church was marked as a gathering church. All the believers met together in one place (Acts 2:44) The gathered daily at the Temple (2:46) Hebrews specifically warns against neglecting the gathering of the assembly (10:25). Over and over again we see the church gathering. Without community, there is no church.
“nor were the leaders, everybody worked and lead their own lives”
Yes, everybody was responsible for their own actions. But when there was a dispute, it was brought to the apostles for resolution. Peter gives commands in his letters for the leaders to diligently guard their flocks. Paul gives guidelines for appointing leadership in his pastoral epistles. In a sense, all the epistles were directives from God, through the apostles, for the church. No, everybody couldn’t just worship as they saw fit. That’s idolatry and if that was what you were implying by this, you’re dead wrong. Leadership is ordained by God (although not every leader is godly and should be followed)
“All across the denominational board practically none of these churches dig deep into their pockets to genuinely help the poor.”
I’m going to provide a link:
That study backs what I am about to say. Those who regularly (at least weekly) attend a church service are far, far more likely to give both in money and time to needs when they arise, both local and global. The churches you condemn are the single greatest breeding ground of givers in our world.
“As far as it still stands the schedulised, regimented, configured ways in which these churches operate today is nowhere to be found within the scriptures”
No, it isn’t. It is also far different than the way churches met two hundred years ago… which is far different than the way churches met five hundred years ago… which is far different from the way churches met during the dark ages, and so on and so forth. Biblical principles must remain the same throughout time but how those principles are fleshed out adapts with changes in time and culture. This is healthy. This is good.
Your first paragraph response is actually proving my point, the folks then came together to fulfil meaningful purposes, unlike the churches of today which again I will refer to as bread and circus, monkey, buffoon fest entertainment centers which serve absolutely no purpose to not only the people who attend them but also to the communities that they reside in.
The issue with the singing is that it is not supposed to be set out and configured into a ritual, this is exactly what the churches of today do, no matter what flavour of church you choose. It is meant to be spontaneous and random, this way the praise is genuine and truly from the heart. Lets not deal with speculation here, I am going to have to dismissal your claim on Philippians 2. The mention of singing in no wise justifies the showbiz nonsense that is taking place within these modern day tumbling temples.
The information that you have given pertaining to dancing I also must dismiss because your references have nothing to do with the church and how it ought to operate.
In relation to collecting money, perhaps I should have expounded on my position, I was referring to greedy clergy members and so called “church leadership” collecting money for themselves and not giving anything back to the people, this is yet again the pervasive standard across the board, from the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican church, the Baptist church to the Pentecostal joke of a denomination, they all use the same “give your money to us in order to receive from God” tactical play book.
Again, as I stated before, in Acts they came together for meaningful purposes, today people come together simply to be entertained by the jester of the king’s court, the circus clown who is known under several different titles, pastor, evangelist, reverend, bishop, minister, deacon, father and whatever other titles you wish to insert here. This replicant church that exists today is not what Christ established upon himself.
See, you can easily point to the scriptures and what these churches ought to be doing, however the problem is that they are NOT doing what they are supposed to be doing, they have completely derailed from the original path, I personally would step out further and state that they are actually works of Satan which have been successfully installed and set up to appear as if they are of Christ.
Sir, churches are giving very little to anybody, you ought to conduct some actual boots on the ground research as I do instead of relying on links and rumours. Churches of today put absolutely nothing into the local community, you have churches on every corner yet the communities these churches reside in are in complete and utter ruin. How can you have homeless people sleeping outside the very establishments that you claim are helping folks locally and globally? Where is this “help” sir?
It is the same situation everywhere I travel in the world, a well kept monument of failure will be residing in a community that resembles a war zone and yet again you will see homeless people sleeping and begging for money outside of the very establishments that are supposed to be a sanctuary to these same desperate people.
My final point, exactly, the modern day configuration and regimentation of these churches in 2015 is nowhere to be found in the bible, I see this as a huge issue and a major red flag. This is the main reason why I refuse to step into any of these churches, it is not a case of simple variations, no, these modern day constructions of decadence and mockery have nothing to do with Christ and the Most High, they are simply carrying out their own selfish, greedy and dark works all the while using Christ, the Most High and the scriptures to blind sight and sucker the vulnerable and the impressionable, they have strayed from the beaten path and are deep into forging paths of their own.
The book of Jasher you are referring to did not exist prior to the sixteenth century. Lets take the most liberal of estimates and say that the last of the New Testament was written in the late second century. Even by the most generous of standards Pseudo-Jasher was written over a milennia too late to be included in the canon. Even with no other standards, it’s out. What is in the text might be fine. It just is not Bible.
Pseudo Jasher according to who exactly? 16th century draft again according to who and based upon what evidence? Not part of the bible according to who? I’ll remind you that the Apocrypha was part of the bible up until the 1700s where it was subsequently removed yet again because of the bias and personal preferences of those claiming to be authorities over the bible and men of God. The book of Jasher is referenced to twice in the scriptures, once in Joshua 10:13 and the other time in 2 Samuel 1:18, seems logical to me that Joshua and Samuel would not make reference to something that was not of value neither something that was not to be read and considered important.
You rely so heavily upon scholars, their “works” and their opinions, yet Christ himself revealed something completely different. Luke 10:21 reads:
10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
The Most High is simply not dealing with those who have positioned and set themselves up as so called “authorities” over the scriptures, he ia dealing with the layman, those who are viewed as nobodies, individuals as it is these souls who have not been contaminated with preferential perspectives based upon personal biases.
Therefore, since we have two old testament books referring to Jasher which were drafted up way before the 16th century, if it is not the book containing 91 chapters that these two fellows were referring to, then where is it?
By the way when somebody makes reference to another person’s work, it is typically because it also ought to be read and be viewed as equally as important.
The Book of Yasher referred to in the scriptures has been lost for millennia. Scholars have proven that the so called English translations from the Hebrew are in fact forgeries. There was no Hebrew text to translate from. If you Google the Book of Yasher, you will find ample evidence to prove that none of the so-called translations or texts is the actual text that was mentioned in the Old Testament.
As regards your attack on churches, yes I am sure that your condemnation is spot on in some cases. I have often questioned the authenticity of some so-called TV evangelists and some denominations. But to dismiss all churches as in utter ruin and the works of Satan is not fair. There are many denominations of Christianity who are in fact doing remarkable work in social areas and are following the command of Jesus in a commendable manner. There are several who have resisted the temptation to go along with what is popular and have maintained the truth revealed by Christ. You might be projecting your disdain at some communities upon us all. No denomination is perfect; we are not gatherings of saints but of sinners trying to become saints. The weaknesses and sins of any individuals do not in themselves constitute a fraudulent denomination; they merely demonstrate that even the leaders of churches are sinners. When a denomination’s teachings have clearly strayed from the truth revealed by Christ for the sole purpose of popularity or the personal aggrandizement of its leader, then I would be more condemning. But I would caution anyone not to dismiss churches outright because they are not perfect nor because they have not settled all the causes of human suffering. That is an ongoing process that we will
never completely settle this side of heaven.
Apologies for the late response, I never received a notification that you responded to me. See, exactly in the same manner as the host of this blog here you are relying upon the same scholars whom Christ has written off. Despite the fact that Christ stated the Father is not revealing information to them, you still wish to uphold them as pillars and reliable sources, thus you have begun to place the words of men over the words of the Son of the Most High, this is extremely problematic at the least.
You made references to Google yet the information therein pertaining to Jasher being a “forgery” is coming from these very same scholars whom Christ and the Most High have nothing to do with. It would be evident that the heavenly powers would not involve themselves with so called “biblical authorities” as their opinions, positions and conclusions are dictated and directed by money and not by the truth.
The churches that you make reference to carrying out remarkable works are very few and far between, the vast majority of churches in 2015 are operating under their own curriculums. Your title of “father” is a prime example of derailment, Christ stated that the spiritual title of “father” was only supposed to be used in reference to the Most High, yet the Roman Catholic church especially freely bestows this title upon its clergy leadership, completely ignoring the words of Christ, this yet again is extremely problematic.
The problem is the clergy leadership throughout all denominations, they involve themselves in all manner of decadent practises in the dark behind closed doors yet all the while feigning themselves to be upstanding leaders and representatives of the kingdom of the Most High in the public domain. The Most High is not looking for clean, pristine, spotless individuals, he requires honesty, responsibility and accountability, this is the perfection he seeks from those who claim to believe in him.
The Most High has declared war upon the shepherds ie those who have placed themselves in leadership positions, he talks about this in Ezekiel 34, he also mentions that fact that these leaders will be held responsible for what they have done to the flocks. This is why the Most High is bringing down these churches as when he really begins to open up the can of judgement upon them, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near one of these monuments of perpetual failure and decadence.
The great works that many of these churches brag about are miniscule when compared to the evil deeds and the mischief that these organisations prefer to run towards. The Most High’s words to you, your church and the rest of these pillars of disgrace is this, prepare war.
The Deprogramming And Decontamination Process Continues
Most High Bless